No Rift in Personalities or Policy Between President and Me: Marty Natalegawa

Rumors of a rift between President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono and Foreign Minister Marty Natalegawa made media reports early this week in the wake of a number of events that seemed to highlight the issue. The Presidential Palace in Jakarta swiftly denied the rumors, while the foreign minister specifically allotted his time upon returning from an official visit to Myanmar on Friday to explain to The Jakarta Post’s Erwida Maulia what was actually behind the events that have sparked the rumors. Here are the interview excerpts.

Question: The rumors about the rift between you and President Yudhoyono emerged last month after opposing statements made by you and the President on the US Darwin plan. You said it might create tension in the region, while the President said he was assured the US meant no harm. How would you explain this?

Answer: First about the supposed rift, I can categorically respond that it has no basis in truth whatsoever.
I serve at the discretion of the President. I carry out the missions, the directives and the instructions that he has set for Indonesia. Of course, I provide counsel, advice, suggestions and even recommendations. But, the notion of there being a rift is not even worthy of speculation. Because in my line of business, as I have said before, it is extremely important and essential to be on message.

About the specific case that you have mentioned, the Darwin case, I don’t think what I said at the beginning and what subsequently transpired should be seen as an “either-or”; as a different world view. On the contrary, I think it is a further development. When the news first came out I said what I said, I don’t have to repeat it again now.

The matter did create misunderstanding in the region — I’m not saying just in Indonesia — in general, and then soon after the president of the United States provided an explanation, which the President of Indonesia shared with all of us. After hearing [Obama’s] explanation, immediately President [Yudhoyono] said in a meeting with Australian Prime Minister [Julia] Gillard, ‘Okay, if that is the intent, why don’t we have joint exercises?’ with the US, Japan, Indonesia, China, Australia. It was very well received and now we are actually going to work on it.

The risk in our region nowadays is the risk of misunderstanding, miscalculation and misperception. I don’t believe our region faces a risk of aggressive intent to injure or harm anyone. What there is in our region is a need for more transparency, better understanding, confidence building.

Another event that triggered the rumors was President Yudhoyono’s preference for consulting with Indonesian Ambassador to the US Dino Patti Djalal when answering a journalist’s question in a press conference at the ASEAN Summit in Bali last month, when you had immediately offered to help. What do you say about this?

I find this quite amusing. What I understand from the event is that the President did not immediately capture the essence of the question, and therefore he was seeking clarification on what the original question was. I was seated three rows from the ministerial seating arrangement. It was impossible for me to break the line to [assist the President], and I’m glad that Pak Dino was quick enough to go up there and explain what the question was. We at the Foreign Ministry are an entity; we are all one team.

And by the way, I’ve read somewhere that someone said that President Obama reprimanded me. Where does this information come from? Because I was there, and I don’t think it’s ever been suggested in that way.

Your standing in the back during the inauguration ceremony of 26 new Indonesian envoys last week also raised the question of the rumored rift, as a senior diplomat said you were supposed to be at the front. What actually happened?

Indonesia is now a democracy. We are not a closed society as in the past, or some other countries where the system of the governance is such that where you stand is supposed to mean certain things. Where I stood does not mean anything; it just happened that the spot was there. Why is it being over analyzed? I chuckled actually; I found this quite amusing.

I was early [for the ceremony]. I wanted to talk with my colleagues, congratulate them and their families, and we talked before the ceremony started. The simple answer is: I did not get a spot up front and I did not want to shove my way forward.

And I want to put on record one thing: the suggestion that it is difficult to get access to the President is actually far from the truth. On the contrary, I am more than happy to provide numerous instances whereby accessibility has not been an issue. As I said before, even since before I was minister of foreign affairs, I have been able to bring to the President issues that needed his attention 24/7.

The rumors have deepened because some say while you still stick to a free and active policy; the President is deemed as being pro-US. The different statements on Darwin is one of the indicators. How do you explain this?

If you look at the totality, not simply segments, you can see over the past two years I have been working for the President, developing this notion of a regional architecture, which includes the US and Russia and is part of what is called dynamic equilibrium, about which the President has spoken very eloquently on many occasions.

I very much wish to put the record straight on the implementation of the independent and active policy. If there is one foreign policy principle with which all of us, without exception, are on board it is the independent and active foreign policy; it is automatic. There is no dispute, no differences here.

So, issues whether they be about the US, Australia and Darwin, China and some other regions; those are developments occurring, but now we already have the framework called the Bali Principles.

So, I want to put that on record as well; there are no rifts whether in terms of personalities, accessibility or even less in term of policy. Independent and active has been our choice since the beginning.

The original article was published at The Jakarta Post on Dec. 31, 2011.

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Future of Malaysia’s Pluralism, Democracy Still Bright Despite Conservatism, Anwar Says

Malaysian opposition leader Anwar Ibrahim has been reported to be struggling to keep his three-party coalition intact. His sodomy allegation and his party’s support for a Malaysian high court verdict allowing the use of word “Allah” by non-Muslims are believed to be among factors contributing to his weakened position. Anwar, who visited Jakarta over the weekend, talked about the issues with The Jakarta Post’s Erwida Maulia. He also shared some of his views of Islam and democracy, and of a more pluralistic face of Malaysia he envisions. Below are excerpts of the interview:

Question: How is the coalition taking into account the recent situation that is believed to have affected it?

Answer: I don’t believe that we’ve lost the case on the “Allah” issue.

It is used by UMNO leaders to portray us as not very Islamic.

We counter this by providing an example in Indonesia, with the greater clerics in Indonesia, and with the opinion of Syekh Yusuf Qardawi, for example, that “Allah” can be used based on the Koran and the tradition of Islam.

Second, on the specific attack on my character, we’ve gone through this process before.

Their intention is to frustrate and deflect our struggle, but I believe Insya Allah (God willing) we are given the opportunity to continue, we will move forward. Don’t think that people are that stupid.

I believe Insya Allah we will weather the storm because we represent a viable alternative.

I trust in the wisdom of our people. I think people want change. Indonesians support change for the better.

Why is it not happening in Malaysia? Insya Allah we will succeed.

How will you address the issue regarding the so-called weakening opposition?

We have to go and meet the people.

In Malaysia we don’t have The Jakarta Post or independent media.

We’ll have to use alternative media such as the Internet, although it has limited capacity.

But I believe, the more they attack the more support we gain; people come in big numbers. Our elections are like the elections during (Indonesia’s) New Order era or of Saddam Hussein who won 99.9 percent of votes. We have to make sure that the electoral process is fair and independent.

With the present government’s upholding of its conservative stance, how do you see the future of pluralism in Malaysia?

The future is bright because we represent more than Malaysia.

The United Malays National Organization (UMNO) is trying to revert that by providing an international image through the Israeli-Apco connection to portray an image that they’re liberal, but internally they’re racist.

Let me give you an example: a lower-income girl drinking beer received a caning, but when UMNO leaders saw some of their members buy San Miguel, an alcoholic company in the Philippines, nobody said anything. This is not what Islam is.

If you talk of Islam you have to be fair, consistent.

It’s never been the sharia principle to punish the poor and protect the rich.

What do you think about Prime Minister Najib Razak’s economic reform package?

The package is aimed at ensuring the prime minister’s party maintain a positive image, but nothing happens on the ground.

They announced it last year; one year back. We’re not quarreling with the announcement, but we have a problem with the implementation.

There’s no talk about corruption. There’s no talk about the rule of law. There’s no talk about open tender for procurement policies… The public relations company advising them, Apco, is tasked to portray a good image of them.

But then you can judge; there’s no investigation for all the corruption issues in Malaysia. There it’s all closed.

What is your view of Islam and democracy and how would you want it to be implemented in Malaysia?

The issue of Islam and democracy is already a non-issue.

When you look at Indonesia, the largest Muslim-populated country in the world, and Turkey, known as the most modern Muslim country in the world, both have opted for democracy and democratic reform.

So, people who will talk about incompatibility between Islam and democracy are certainly obsolete in their thinking.

This is of course what is expressed by a small minority.

I’ve always promoted the idea that Indonesia should play a more proactive role and promote (Islam and democracy).

What kind of face would you envision for Malaysia if you were given a chance to lead the country?

We subscribe to constitutional principles. I mean, Malaysia becomes independent as a liberal democratic country and Malaysia becomes independent with Islam as the religion of the federations, but with rights protection for other communities, other religious beliefs.

That’s all that we want; to improve the politics. But, you know, the principles of the Constitution have been diluted, as they continue to arrest without trial.

The media is controlled by the rich; there is no liaison for the rest. We have to change that.

This article was published at The Jakarta Post on April 14, 2010.

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‘People Need to Recognize Themselves as ASEAN People’

Leader of Thailand’s Democrat Party, 44-year-old British-born and Oxford-educated Abhisit Vejjajiva, was elected the Thai Prime Minister in mid-December last year after months of political unrest that ruined the country’s reputation as one of Southeast Asia’s most significant democracies. During his short visit to Indonesia last week, the “housewives’ choice” prime minister talked with several Indonesian journalists, including The Jakarta Post’s Erwida Maulia, about various issues, ranging from the anger of supporters of former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra, the Rohingya boatpeople and the progress in the implementation of the ASEAN Charter. The following is an excerpt.

Question: How do you handle the resistance of Thaksin’s supporters to you leadership?

Answer: I think the best way to handle all these problems is by working with people and proving that we are here to address their concerns. After by-elections countrywide the government won by a big majority, this means that the people want to give us an opportunity. And over the last term (about two months), we’ve made significant progress and people accept that we are working very hard to address the economic issues, pushing through the stimulus package, steering the mid-year budget which has been passed in lower house and to be passed in the Senate on Monday. We could also prove that the government is working again after all those troubles last year.

What will you do with Thaksin? Will you bring him home to Thailand for reconciliation and to calm his supporters?

We will seek extradition but we can’t. I think reconciliation has to be achieved through justice and the rule of law. Thaksin has violated the law; he has to accept the consequences of that. But you know that Thailand is a very forgiving society. But you have to be, under the law you have to accept your responsibilities, face the consequences of your actions.

Regarding the global economic recession, how do you project the growth of the Thai economy?

Like many emerging economies, especially open economies, we have been badly hit by the drop in global demands. So our export numbers and tourism numbers over the last three to four months have been very bad. What we do is we try to sustain and stimulate the domestic market. But, that cannot fully replace the drop in the global demand.

Obviously we have not seen problems of this scale before and nobody is quite sure when the global economy will see an upturn.

But I still believe that good coordination and strong packages worldwide, and most importantly swift and clear decision making on the financial climate in the United States and in Europe, will help ease the situation as the end of the year approaches.

About the problems in Southern Thailand, will your government consider  inviting Indonesia into a mediation process to help solve the problems?

Indonesia has been very helpful in explaining the situation to the Organization of Islamic Countries (OIC). There are also organizations like the Nahdlatul Ulama and the Muhammadiyah which offer scholarship exchanges. They came to help expand the opportunities of young people in the area and help us in solving the problems. We appreciate that.

What kind of role do you expect Indonesia to play?

We have had very good discussions with the President [Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono], and we understand in essence that this is a domestic problem, but, you know, you have the experience; we are keen to learn from you.

During your talks with President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono, what do you and ASEAN plan to do regarding the Rohingya boat people?

There are things that we can do unilaterally in terms of stopping the trade of humans and human trafficing. Thailand will do its part. I have already referred these cases in terms of smuggling and trading in humans to the special investigation department so that we can crack down on this in Thailand. But it won’t be enough. We need regional cooperation, and we also expect the international organizations like the UNHCR to try stop the problem from its source.

Basically these are people who seek special opportunities and they enter various countries illegally. Of course we could leave it up to individual countries to deal with, like all countries do in the world. But clearly this is something that would be better handled if there was some kind of regional cooperation. So ASEAN could discuss it, the Bali Process would be used, and we propose to set up a contact group of affected countries to work closely with international organizations to find a better solution.

Does this mean that the Rohingya issue will be a main topic at the upcoming ASEAN Summit?

I think it will be discussed during the summit, but there are so many other important matters on the agenda too. Myanmar will be present. For ASEAN countries wanting to realize the ASEAN community, we need to have a more open talk about issues that matter to people in the region. We’re not going to be engaged in the blame game, but we will try to seek solutions that will help better the lives of the people in the region.

Do you think the ASEAN Charter will do much to promote democracy in Southeast Asia?

One of the elements that we will certainly help push forward is the setting up of the ASEAN human rights body, which needs to be both realistic and credible. I think we’ll make good progress. We hope that by the 15th Summit this body can be approved.

What kind of steps do you think can be taken to work toward the realization of an ASEAN community?

The real challenge is first of all to raise the people’s awareness [about ASEAN]. Because of the diversity in the region, the recognition of all the people that they are part of the ASEAN is still not strong. We need to have people recognize themselves as ASEAN people, and that still needs a lot of work. We will begin the process at the 14th ASEAN Summit which will provide the opportunity for parliamentarians, youth groups and civil societies to meet the leaders.

This Q&A article was published at The Jakarta Post on Feb. 23, 2009.

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